Special Guest Expert - Fernando Rojas: Video automatically transcribed by Sonix

Special Guest Expert - Fernando Rojas: this mp4 video file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Daniel Aaron:
What does it take to create a vibrant, thriving life? First, the sad news is that Thoreau was right most people are leading quiet lives of desperation, lacking in meaning, fulfillment, and vitality. But we choose more. We choose to create extraordinary lives and the art of vibrant living. Show entertains you with inspiration, empowerment and education to create your life into a masterpiece. It's time. Let's vibe up. Aloha y'all. Welcome to the show. I am Daniel Aaron, your host. This is the Art of Vibrant Living show. And here's the thing A vibrant, thriving life does not tend to happen by accident. It takes intention. It takes awareness. For most of us, it takes learning. For a lot of us, it takes reprograming. And that's what this show is all about, is empowering you to live your most vibrant, thriving life. Because guess what? You feel better. You make the world a better place. We've got an amazing show today. I'm so excited for our guests. I'll tell you about him in a moment and please know this too. If you are not succeeding at the level you wish, if you're not thriving to the level you wish, if you know there is more, please reach out. I would love to have a conversation with you, love to support you a lot of different ways that can happen, so feel free to send me an email. Daniel at Daniel aaron.com and I would love to connect with you. Now today's show Fernando Rojas. Amazing guy who is a multi-talented, trained body worker, somatic therapist and brings a whole different level to the concept of body and somatic wisdom and therapy, which has a lot to do with presence. But I'm going to have him share with you more about that himself, because he's much more articulate. But it's, you know, a great blessing to have someone who's so wise about the body, but also knows a lot more about how the body really works and the impact that has on our lives. So, Fernando, thank you so much for being with us.

Fernando Rojas:
It is my pleasure. Thank you for the invitation.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Well, you know, and I first thing I want to say actually, because I want to hear from you and I'll invite you to tell a little bit of like, how did you get to this point in your life? But I'll say one thing for me, which was, um, there's a great line from, uh, geez, one of the famous Russian playwrights, um, Fedorovich, it's almost coming to me. And the line is lived a short distance from his body. Right. Famous character. And he lived a short distance from his body. And I remember when I read that I was like, Holy shit, that's me. Like I spent the first, I don't know, 20 years, 23 years of my life, so disconnected from my body, so unaware of it, that when I realized, like there's this concept of body intelligence and being, uh, conscious in my body, it changed everything. And it was a long road to sort of develop some awareness. But it was such a huge turning point in my development. Um, really just such a fan of the kind of wisdom and experience that you have and that you bring to this. So would you be up for telling our audience just a little bit about, you know, how did you arrive to this point? How did you get into this and what you're doing?

Fernando Rojas:
With pleasure. With pleasure I. So, uh, what I do. Mostly is. I teach massage therapists. Um. A particular way of being in order to take advantage of, uh, body intelligence. Somatics. Uh, this includes presence. It includes the power of of awareness. And it it it has a particular way of seeing, of explaining and of describing. How is it really that we can affect another body with touch, which is not not necessarily prescriptive. And I say it's more receptive, but how did I get here? Um, well, I um. I am also trained in, uh, in, in design. And that's my first, uh, that that is my first career. If you could say that the earlier career, uh, I still do some of that. And, uh, but I always had a, uh, an interest in. In touch in, in, in energy of the hands and so on. And I used to play a lot with. With that, we just placing my hands on a forehead and see if I could take a headache out and and of course, I think all massage therapists have the story of, um, of putting their hands on someone and people telling them you should study this because, you know, because it feels so good. Um, and so I decided, uh, to go train, and but the training that I received was a training that that is also, um. It is also related to another aspects of my life that I'm interested in, like yoga and meditation and so on. And so I went and I studied a particular kind of bodywork that is, that is that has a strong meditative component. From that? Uh. Of course. I also seem to enjoy, uh, teaching and explaining things and breaking things down. And so I taught massage for a while, uh, like four years in new Jersey and, uh, and, and I and I started to come up with, with ways of explaining things in a way that I could understand it and that sort of developed into, uh, gathering some of the most influential bodywork modalities that I studied and, and coming up with this, you know, this, this way, this, this thing that we call somatic mindfulness, um, to teach first my, my students at the massage school and then, uh, as continuing education, uh, to massage therapists. And I've been doing that for about ten years.

Daniel Aaron:
Fantastic. That's that's cool. And I love the, the, the integration of the different components that you bring to it. So let me let me ask this. This is going to sound like a really stupid question. Um, and it's super, super basic, though I think it'd be an interesting jumping off point. And I just really want to hear the way you will respond to this, like. What is the importance of the body when it comes to living well? If we just say that living well, having a thriving life, being happy, how is the body related to that? Or is it?

Fernando Rojas:
I could be biased, but, uh. It is way more important than than normally we would think. In my view, um, having a relationship with our bodies. Can correlate to the way that we live and even to, you know, how much do we thrive, you know, even in any aspect, relationship abundance and so on and so forth. Um, if you take you know, I know I like your word vibrant and that, that, that could to that can relate to the frequency, you know, and uh, our bodies. When they are at their best. They tend. You could say vibrate. They tend to vibrate in a particular way. And I think that when all parts of our body are working in the best possible way that they can, then our frequency would be that high, and then our bodies would take a particular swag, if you want to call it that, and also will be attracting to our lives, uh, or be or we will be clear enough in order to, to identify opportunities to have, uh, uh, intentional relationships and so on. So I, I would say that it would be in it's impossible not to have some, some meaningful, uh, relationship with our bodies and, and and not thrive. Mm. I hope I said that right.

Daniel Aaron:
I follow what you're saying. Uh, and I'm with you and I. And I know I'm biased also. Right. Uh, having been, you know, having had that background that I had of growing up in a family of fat people, uh, family where it was, um, the mentality of better living through science, the, the standard medical model, you know, get sick, take a pill. Um, I have no responsibility for this machine. I'm just happen to be running it. Like, that was the mentality I grew up with. And when I got the shift and realized, like, oh, actually, I think there's something to this, then I, I went really deep into it and, you know, with bodywork and yoga and all kinds of things. So I'm biased too. Um, and, you know, and it's an interesting one because, like, sometimes the way I think of yoga is yoga is it's not about the body. Like yoga is really about developing consciousness, right? Developing awareness, developing spirit, getting relationship with spirit. And we use the body because it's a very effective way of getting there. But and I think about. And I want to get your perspective on this in a second. One of my teachers years ago that some would have described as enlightened. Um, very aware, wise, being on many levels. And so much of what he was teaching us is that you're not your body, right? You're you're you are this infinite spirit who's inhabiting this body. And, you know, of course, on a certain level, that's inarguably true. And what I saw in his behavior was because he didn't identify with his body. He didn't really take care of it. You know, he didn't really pay attention to how he moved it or what kind of foods he put into it. And he wasn't horrible with it. But, you know, certainly far from its potential. And his perspective was like, it doesn't matter. You know, I'm not that. So why do I care? And I always thought. Fair. However, what would it be like if you did Revere it? What if you did treat this body with great love and respect and hone it, you know, and that's part of what I hear you saying, is like when we really optimize the body and get it into, you know, peak shape or it's its vibrant natural health, then we're vibrating at a different level. And I think that's going to change the entire experience of life. Um, so that that was a long introduction to a question to say, you know what? What do you think about what he said in that perspective? How do you relate to that?

Fernando Rojas:
Yeah. So it and and of course we can use common sense right in, in that sense. And so it how would how would it make sense to not include the body if we are if we are if we have it, you know, if we are contained in it or however you look at it, uh, it, it, it makes sense and, and it even makes sense in, in all the machines that we create, you know, you have to take care of them anyway. You have to change the oil, you know, in your car and so on for it to last. So it doesn't make sense to, to to not have the body as part of, of, of your spiritual experience. And, and the yoga, um, the yoga, I guess you could say points of view that I have been exposed to are. Ah ah. They. Think that the body is, is really important and in fact, that you cannot leave the body out of the equation. Right? And if you think of yoga, um, yoga is a is a way of of. Of adopting certain postures that that represent certain metaphorical ways of being that you practice as you practice the, the, the, the postures. And that helps you then, uh, sort of integrate, uh, ways of being so that they can apply to your daily life like flexibility, balance, strength. Right. Mostly is you could I mean, it is a simplification of it. But if you practice, if you practice balance and if you practice, uh, flexibility and if you practice strength, you can apply those qualities into other aspects of your life. So through your body you can practice living.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah, 100%. Okay. So. Something else. When we were speaking earlier, you you helped me understand how much you bring this quality of presence to the types of, you know, somatic or body work therapies. And, and when when you were speaking about that, I flashed back to I lived in Asia for many years. And one of the things that people, Westerners go to Asia, they're like, it's so great, you can get a massage for $10, $5, you know? And when I first got there, I was like, wow, that's all. And and, you know, and the number of massages that I walked out on, um, over there before I gave up on them, mostly because I would go in and, you know, and I'd pay 5 or $10 and, you know, very sweet person was going to massage me, but it always felt like they put their hands on me. And then their mind went somewhere else completely. And it just, like, creeped me out. I was like, I don't feel good somebody touching me when they're not there. It was weird. Um, and that's a pretty extreme example. But, you know, would you say more about this idea of the quality of presence being maybe as important as the technique?

Fernando Rojas:
Yes, of course. And I would even go as far as to say that, uh, presence is important in all ways that we touch and interact with, with other people. Not, not. Not for particular ways of touching. Right. And so, um, and perhaps if you if you don't mind, I'll say something that that's important to say. Right. I, uh. I played with the idea. And now, you know, later on in my life, I've come to find out that that it is that it is scientifically sort of suggested that. When you make someone's day better. You. Receive some benefit from that. Right. And so it is interesting that it is through service that that we can feel really that we're, that, that we're living meaningful lives. And so in the aspect of relating to another person and specifically through through touch and the touch that I'm talking about is therapeutic touch. This is a great opportunity to, uh, continue to hone that possibility of. Of putting, uh, filling my happiness bank by making someone's day better every time that I interact with them. Right. And so this, of course, this applies to any interaction that we have in life, but specifically with touch. What now? What science now suggests and supports. And what I teach is that through a way of being. And especially a way of being that is at minimum mindful and and you and a simpler word would be curious exploratory check ins. Hey, let me just say let me just objectively look at what this looks like, what this feels like, right. That is already healthy. If you add to that a quality of being right, like. Compassion or love or bliss, and you attend to what the sensations of that are in your body. And an interesting question that we play with in our workshops is. What does love actually feel in you? Like if you think of someone that you love? What does that actually feel in you? Because it's different that I ask you, do you love your mom or your child? And you're going to say, of course I do, right? But have you have you actually sat down and said, what does that feeling mean?

Fernando Rojas:
How does that feeling me? Where do I feel it? Does it move? Does it go from here to there? Because anything, any experience that we have has a sensation component to it. There's no, no way of of avoiding that. Right. And so if I am able to play with that and to become good at embodying these sensations, and when I am in the presence of someone, and then, of course, when I go and touch someone immediately, what I am bringing to that equation is that. So, of course, if I'm distracted, you're going to feel that I'm not interested. If I am mindful, at least you feel heard. Your body feels heard, right? Because not everybody gets a full hour or 90 minutes of attention just to them, right? And on top of that, if you, uh, if you play with these qualities and I, I'm just going to put them all on there love, I feel love. And then I have my hands on someone. It. I am going to say it has the potential of many interesting things happening. And I am. And in every one of my classes I do an exercise that is like that, sort of like I explained to you, when we when I guide all of us into feeling love and then playing with a with a foot, really, we call it love the foot. And we have seen uh, and on every workshop we get really incredible results in different ways, you know, like. Parts of the body that also don't hurt or, uh, or swelling that comes down. Or I had this pain for ten years and yeah, I don't feel it anymore and stuff like that. Right. So it's it's really interesting what's happening now. And that's and this is anyway, um, science, science support it. Right. It's not something that I'm inventing, but I guess the, the gist of it, the way to summarize it is. It is probably a good idea to make someone's day better, because it's going to be good for you, for your health, and for your happiness. And a good way of doing that is to at minimum. Be mindful. You really interested in what someone is telling you.

Fernando Rojas:
At minimum. And if you can practice playing with qualities of being sensing and you don't have to think about them, think about someone you love. Think of your cat, you know. What do I feel when I feel what I feel for them? Mm. And that is actually I say that it's like taking medicine. And so all that I said has nothing to do with. I am going to use technique number 132 for that thing that I identified on your shoulder that it's called this right. Has nothing to do with that. And yet the possibility of just being in a particular way and putting your hands on someone or hugging someone for that matter, or on a handshake, right? Or or putting your arm around someone you know. In any of those contexts, what do you bring to the table or to the interaction is actually something that can be good for them and good for you.

Daniel Aaron:
Beautiful. Well, it's, uh, you know, what you spoke of just now. Reminds me of the Beatles. In the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make, right? It's. You know, what you give out is what you get back. What you feel instantly. And as you said that it occurred to me in a new way. And so I'm going to reflect this back just before we go on and see if it's if it lines up with what you're saying. Like one of the things that we know well when it comes to studying consciousness and, and I talk about a lot when I lead breathwork, is this principle called entrainment, which simply means that any two bodies or energies that are in proximity, they're at different vibrations. When they come into proximity, they align to the same vibration. Right. And so part of what I hear you saying is, you know, as a practitioner or a therapist, if the practitioner or therapist brings themself to sort of an exalted emotion, to a beautiful state, to a higher vibration, right then automatically that's going to be affecting the rest of the world. And yet, in some ways, maybe even more so when it comes to physical touch, because that's a a way that the transmission is stronger or the entrainment has got to be more direct or happen more quickly. Um, with the touch. Does that make sense?

Fernando Rojas:
That makes sense. And that illustration that you made of frequencies, uh, balancing each other is the is the easiest way to understand it, in my view. Um, you know, you talk about the Beatles and, you know, we've been saying these things sort of lightly for forever, but now science supports it, you know, now, now, now this can this can be measured. And so it, it, it makes it real easy to just. And of course, you know, again, using, using that type of music, you know, give this give this a chance. Right. Don't believe it. Just give it a chance. Try it and see if it has. If it has any results, either in a conversation that you have or in something that's going on with your body and so on. The body is always telling us. Something, right? And all we have to do is stop for a second and and hear it. Not do anything about it. Just answer the phone call right and be there with it and really understand what's going on. We talk about a headache, right? I have a headache and I say, really? We have a headache because the headache is the head is really big, right? Is it here? Does it move? Is it static? Does it pulse. Right. And so it is sort of like like like being respectful to my body to really pay attention to what is actually saying and not come up with a quick label and saying, hey, oh no, I have a headache. No, no, you have you have pressure here and you have pain here and you have pulsing here. And that's a different thing than saying, I just have a headache and then and then brush it off. And so to go back to what to what you said, I think it's, it's it's a fantastic way of understanding. Right. I when I assume a particular state of being, I vibrate in a particular frequency. Right. And frequencies are all over the place now, like the different kinds of frequency, you know, the music that you can hear, that that innovates, you know, a certain frequency in you and, you know, helps you with this or helps you with that when we interact with someone else.

Fernando Rojas:
You would think that the higher frequency is going to have is going to bring, it's going to pull, you know, that lower frequency to you. Right? And everybody then is going to be on the one that is most, most beneficial because you you got to think that that there's an intelligence that is bigger than us and that what it has. Is the best. You know, the intention for for us to be the best version of ourselves that we can and it and it correlates to everything. If we're all going to survive as a species, we're all going to have to help each other out, right? And it seems like it's a good idea to help myself out first so that I can actually help someone else and not act as if I have a tool that is going to help everyone. Mhm. You know, because if everybody worker knows that, it doesn't matter if this one technique helps this one person, it doesn't mean that it's going to help every, every other person with, with a particular thing. And so um well. Can we stop there?

Daniel Aaron:
That's great. No, I love it. And I love your your passion for this. Right. The fact that you've dived so deeply into this realm and, you know, and I can feel how much you care about it. You know what? Actually, that reminds me of something else that I wanted to ask you about. Um, because we were speaking earlier about, uh, Osho. Right. And you, one of your the modalities that you've encountered and you bring forward is this Osho rebalancing. And I remember years ago when I was studying a lot of the Osho work and living in an ashram. Um, one of the things that he said is that the most important aspect of a therapeutic relationship is the love of the therapist. Now, and he was speaking in that context about the kind of emotional, psychological, psychic, spiritual therapies, not so much the physical in that context, not that it's necessarily any different, but, you know, it was kind of a radical idea at that point because we had grown up in or there was still popular in those days, like in the 70s, this idea that the, the therapist is this, you know, sitting back in a chair with a pen and paper, very clinical, detached and, um, and so this idea of the, the therapist not being a neutral but actually bringing love and care to the relationship, not only is that valid and important, OSHA was saying that's the most important part of it, you know, and that's a little bit of the flavor I hear you speaking of in a sense here, am I hearing you accurately?

Fernando Rojas:
I'm going to say precisely. Right. So it is it is just that it's, you know, from the 70s and on until now, you know, love, you know, the power of love, the love movement. You know, it's all it's all with us, right? It's just that it depends on what it gets associated with. And, and whoever has the the loudest voice, what do they say about it? What is beautiful now is that there is science like, you know, and you can go check out the Heartmath Institute and Doctor Joe Dispenza's work to, to see that it's that it's not a thing where I can act as if I'm separate to the person that I'm relating, that I'm relating with. It is more of a true love. The more I, the more the closer I am to love, the more effective my whatever I do is going to be. In the case of of my work bodywork, but in whichever again, if whichever interaction that I have, the closer that I am to love, the more it naturally is going to be better for both of us. So Osho made it a point. To go. To go. To go deep into that as much as you can and and develop love in yourself as as much as you could. In order to be able to offer it and offer it for free. Right. So he was all about, you know, what one of the one of we used to say that one of the, one of the most important things in a relationship is freedom, right? You offer the love. It's almost a one way ticket, right? You offer it and then love blossoms. It's not. I offer it, and then I'm expecting you to offer it back. Yeah. Makes sense.

Daniel Aaron:
Oh, man, it makes so much sense, you know, and and I take that in a, in sort of a personal way because my experience as a kid and now I have so much appreciation and respect for both my parents, they were doing the best they could. And, and I look at my, my own mother and she literally said to me over and over again when I was a kid, uh, she said, you know, Danny, love is not a one way street. And she was saying that basically because she wanted me to be doing more. And fair enough, I didn't really want to wash the dishes every night. And I didn't always want to rake the leaves. And but that was important to her. And and, you know, in retrospect, I wish I had done more of that. But on the flip side, when my daughter was born, I made sure to give her the message, like, you don't owe me anything. It was my choice. And it's my not only my duty, but my great privilege to love you and take care of you. That's that's the deal. You don't owe me anything. Yeah. Um, so I, you know, and then the other piece I'll bring in that that cracks me up is, uh, I had a friend who, uh, lived at the Osho Ashram in India for many years, and he would make jokes about it, and people would go there and say, oh, I, I hear this is all about free love. And the standard response would be, well, do you normally pay for it? How does that work? Um, so yeah, yeah. I mean, love and freedom are like maybe the juiciest parts of life. And it's shocking how much we have, uh, learned to put conditions and restrictions on those.

Fernando Rojas:
And if, if, you know. And of course, you bring, uh, bring your daughter. I have three daughters and, uh, um, in in very many ways. My life revolves around that specifically. And everything that I do does, uh, have some component of, of of them in it if you want, if you want to call it that, if I have said and I and I stand by it that, uh, you know, this work, this work this. And Milton Trager used to say, um, I have this thing, and it works, right? Uh, I say there is something to this, right? There is something to this that is important on a on a world. On a world level. On a human level. Um, and I have it and my daughters are going to benefit from it, you know, and that to me is enough. But. If you're going to talk about meaning, you know, and, and ways to, um, to put, uh, something in the happiness bank. Um, I have, I have. I have heard this man and his name is, uh, Simon Sinek, I think. And he talks about. Uh, the why, you know, why do you even do this? Right? And I and I have an answer for that. And the answer is, you know, and this is a true story. The answer is. There is a mom therapist out there right now. That was with me in a class. Maybe a year ago, two years ago or so. And she has now, today a daughter that that has a condition that that she has to deal with chronic pain all the time. And I have never met this daughter. But she this mom therapist, she spent one one day with me in a class and she went home and she didn't say anything. She went home. And she played with some of these things with her daughter. Right. When she came back the second day, she received a message from her daughter that, uh, she had, um, spent the better part of the morning with no pain. Right. Which is very strange for them. Right. And, and and I sit with that and I think about and I think about, uh, ripples.

Fernando Rojas:
Right. Because, you know, if you think about it, because we played with these concepts. Someone went and took it seriously and then did something meaningful for themselves. And then there's a girl today. That is not in so much pain as she was, you know, prior to her mom being exposed. Right. And so that's my why and that's one. And that's enough. If I could, you know, if if 100,000 people, you know, uh, are exposed to it, then. Fantastic. Right. But that. That is important to keep in mind, right. That that that keeping. Keeping a certain purpose that has to do with making, again, making someone else's day better in some way. Will actually help that whatever it is that you're doing. Sort of. Flowers by itself. And that has been the experience of, you know, how this has moved, uh, by itself, you know, no, no business plan.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Well that's that's beautiful. And and I note and appreciate that this theme keeps weaving through what you speak about, which is the idea of making people's day better, making their lives better. And you know, and we we know so much more now about, uh, how do I want to say it about well, I'll say the nervous system if we just put it that way. And because we have more stress and more acute stress conditions in the world right now than ever before. And so, you know, it's it's pretty much common language in the world that if we're not effectively managing stress and we have so much stimulation all the time, we're getting our nervous system bombarded and people are not able to get into not able to get out of fight or flight or survival mode. And so their bodies in breaking down and they're not getting rest and recuperation, their digestion isn't working so well and their parasympathetic nervous system's not working so well. Like and and you know, and there's billions of dollars of supplements that go into this and, you know, thousands upon thousands, thousands of hours of people paying attention to sleep labs and sleep podcasts and all of this. And, you know, in some way, what you're speaking of to me is the great shortcut to dealing with stress and getting out of the sympathetic stress zone, which is get over ourselves for a minute and pay attention to someone else. Right? Because when we do that, if we just put our attention on someone else, it tells us on a subconscious level, hey, I must be okay. It must be not. It can't be that bad. If I can pay attention over here for a minute and immediately our system starts to relax. That's right. Does that make sense?

Fernando Rojas:
That that makes sense. And I say to whomever is listening to this. Right.

Daniel Aaron:
Just just.

Fernando Rojas:
Try. I, you know, I say, um. With care and respect. I say that stress or chronic stress, uh, all the way to trauma and PTSD, are a result of intelligence. They're not a they're not a problem. They're not. This is adaptive intelligence. This is the way that we were designed. All we have to do is is is to find a way to talk to our subconscious, which is the one that that and I have a and I'll say just really quickly, I have, I have sort of like a framework around that. Right? You can talk about the subconscious and about the unconscious. Uh, I don't remember who. And I didn't come up with that. I heard it somewhere, but I don't. I don't remember who it was, but when I do remember, I will gladly give credit. But the subconscious and the unconscious, you can view them as two different things. You can view the unconscious as sort of the operating system, the one that says that the sun is going to come out at the right time every, every day. And if you eat an apple, it's going to become you in four hours and your heart is beating and it's just going to beat until it stops. Right? So and, and most of us are born and we end up on our, you know, standing up on our two legs. And it takes us a couple of years and it takes a horse four minutes. Right. So that's, that's the, the intelligence of everything. Yeah. And then you have the subconscious. The subconscious you could say is like software on the operating system. Yeah. And that is adaptive intelligence. That's the one that helps us. Um. Manage whichever environment we are in, and it is designed to keep us alive. Right? And some that I have heard many people say, you know, the brain is not made to make us happy. It's made. It's made to make us alive. Right. And so the way that the system works is that it's going to retain what it thinks we need for us to survive. And if we learn to talk to the subconscious.

Fernando Rojas:
Where? The template of everything that we've experienced in our lives is stored. And we don't view it as having things that are a problem that I have to get rid of. It's just everything that I live is going to stay with me forever. What I need to work with is the automatic reaction that the body is going to take whenever I'm triggered, because if so, this is so. This is such good intelligence that, for example. If a tiger is coming to eat me. And I sit down and I say, well, I'm just going to, you know, check out the situation and I'm just going to see, you know, oh, it's coming. You know, it's about two seconds from me. I'm dead. Right. So my body is designed to make me start running before I can think about it. That makes sense. And this has been proven with with with snakes. Like we react, we make decisions before we consciously know that we made the decision. This has already been proven. And so it is important for me to start running before I can think about it. Right. So that's how I am designed. So if I have an experience that that every time is triggered, my body engages in a particular way or I run or I get fearful or I cry or I curl into a ball and it and depending how big the experience it was, you know, it'll be a stronger reaction. I am never gonna really forget that. And that's always going to be a sad experience. But I can work with the subconscious so that whenever I remember it. It doesn't take over my body. And the way to do that is to bring in as the the body keeps the score book says, to bring in new embodied experiences that help the body place itself in space and time. If that makes sense. I feel like I was rambling.

Daniel Aaron:
Uh, no, it makes good sense, and I, I love I love the idea that you're bringing forward that. Right. These natural survival mechanisms. Right. The way we respond to threats and even the results, that it's not something that we have to castigate or put down or say is wrong. Mhm. Um, and what, what I bring to that is. Right. And uh, let me say it this way. Um, I'm sure I'll offend somebody somewhere, somehow. I always have that capacity. But years ago, when I was living in an ashram in Holland and we were doing really intense therapies, right, these confrontative, uh, screaming, yelling therapies and the philosophy that was given was, what we're going to do is take all of our negativity and throw it out. Right. And this is what I think of as cathartic therapy. Right. And there are a bunch of different variations, and the idea is all kind of the same, which is whatever you have in you that you don't like, you throw it out. Right. And, and, you know, and I have a lot of appreciation because I think I got a lot from those experiences. In some ways, it was that I became aware of the stuff that was inside that I didn't know about. Yes. Um, yet at the same time, I feel like when we are doing that, throwing it out, when we are cathartic, what we're also doing is, well, we're missing the message. We're missing the intelligence to use the word you used. And we're also creating this sort of, uh, dirt sick cyclical vacuum creation that as soon as we throw it out, there's this emptiness and my system is going to fill it up in some way with the same type of energy. Um, so so I, as my own work has evolved, I'm less a fan of the cathartic therapies and, you know, believe that there's that, that we don't need that necessarily. And maybe it's not the most useful. Mhm.

Fernando Rojas:
Mhm.

Daniel Aaron:
Does that make sense.

Fernando Rojas:
It does. And and then and then how would I, how would I um. How would I approach it? Right. Because there is value in the catharsis. Um, is is just that. You could say. If mindful awareness of something is our currency, and we and we consider and give this a chance that there's power in mindful awareness, catharsis is going to force that awareness. And so there will be a component of awareness which will be useful. But often. A more loving way of, of of approaching our whatever is going on with ourselves. And at least a curious way of doing it does the same thing without it having to be a a forceful relationship, right? Correct cognition of what's going on, and especially where it's happening in my body is the point. I and the way that I can explain that better is like this. I have a client that comes in and they are, and I say this lovingly. They are experts in the in the accident that they had in their car, which have caused them to experience whiplash. Okay, so they are experts in that, but what I am interested and what I am interested in them being interested in, is what's going on with your body now. So you're already an expert in the story of whiplash, and the story that no other therapist has been able to deal with your whiplash and so on. But what I am interested is, is is making you look. I often say when I make you look, I've done my job. And the way to make you look is to say, okay, whiplash. All right. Great. Where do you feel? Right. And you can and you can help your your client or your friend. Create. Uh, map of what's actually going on in their body. Apart from the subjective emotion that is attached to it or the story, let's just call it the story. Yes, there's whiplash or there's the boss that is being an ass to me. Or, you know, the the person that I had a problem, uh, a relationship problem with. Let's let's embrace that and say, okay, that's great, but let's go to your body.

Fernando Rojas:
Where are you feeling and what is it that you're feeling and where. Right. And so if if we help our clients or our friends say, okay, I am feeling it here. And it's like I said before with a, with a, with a headache, you know, I feel pressure over here in my belly and I feel it pressure down towards my ribs and so on. That's answering the call. Your body's calling. You answer the call by acknowledging what is actually going on. And that is the therapy that that simple thing. It's just that it's so simple, right, that we just have to give it a chance and and try it. Right. And so I often in my classes say humor me. Just humor me, you know, for these next two days, and then you can make your own conclusions later.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, you know, part of what I hear in you saying that is, is the philosophy of. It's only as good as your experience shows you. Right. So don't believe anything, but but try it out. Have the experience of it. Um, and and I also think of years ago when I was studying writing and one of the devices I used a lot in my groups of working with people was sort of play acting or theater type things. And in both of these contexts, there's a truism that I learned many, many years ago, which is when we become aware of an emotion and express it, it is instantaneously trans instantaneously transformative. Right. And it seems like the more we talk about it, the more I'm seeing this model again of that it's when something, even if we we don't have to call it negative like you're talking about, you can call it a pain or you can call it a sensation, right? Let's just call it something neutral. But when it's there and it doesn't have attention or voice or movement, that's when it becomes, you know, problematic in some way. Yet if we bring awareness to it and maybe voice to it, it's automatically evolving. Right? And we could say, well, it's probably there for some reason in the first place. So, you know, we're allowing it to do its job.

Fernando Rojas:
Yes. Yes yes certainly. And and think of think about it this way. Let's just say that because this applies to even actual pain, right? And we do work with pain in these in these ways. Um. It is about placing the body in space and time. If no one tells the body that the hammer is not hitting my finger right this moment, my body is experiencing and defending from the hammer hitting my finger. But if we go to that sensation. With awareness, with interest. And we say, oh, okay. So they look at what's happening now. We have a teacher that says there are two kinds of pain. There's the pain of the body repairing itself. And of course that pain is necessary. And then there's the pain, which is sort of like the emotional, um, automatic. Judgment of me being upset because I just hit my finger with a hammer, right? And so I continue to relive the thing as I judge what actually happened. But if I just go there. And I and I and I tried to objectifies what's going on. And I say it's pulsing here. It's pressure. There is this or is that the pain that is emotional? We can certainly work with the pain that is something broken that is fixing. Okay. We give it. We give it a chance to, to help itself. There's some there's a technique, uh, that is really interesting that anybody can try right now or, you know, in the near future when they hit their pinky in the leg of some furniture, because we're all going to have that experience soon enough. Right? So that is an awful experience. But it's a good experience to try this. So you hit your pinky, not your pinky but your or your little tool. So your, uh, what do you call the little the smallest toe is.

Daniel Aaron:
You can call it pinky toe, little toe toe.

Fernando Rojas:
Pinky toe. You know, I am just a very quick joke. And in my classes I say, I say foot fingers when I'm talking about. Yeah. And that that is now a joke. But it used to be just my, my Spanish comment, uh, emerging. But anyway, uh, you hit your pinky toe with some furniture. It's going to really, really uncomfortable. But what I invite you to do is to bring your pinky toe right to the place where you hit it and wait. That is called confronting. Confronting in another philosophy. And you wait and you wait. And more than likely, the pain is going to peak. And then it's going to subside. And if you don't break something, it'll go away and you will only feel it again when you step on it or or move it or do something with it, because it's still, you know, it's still fixing whatever was was, uh, not broken, but at least hurt. But the pain that, that it's usually sustained goes away immediately because you've given the you're you're you're telling your body the hitting of my pinky toe to that furniture has finished. Mm. Right. We tell them that that's actually finished. So it's a memory. It's a bad memory, but it's not. It's not continuing to hurt. It doesn't stay with me just because I paid attention to it. I don't have to pay attention and bring analysis to it. I just have to pay attention. And interestingly enough, what you were saying about about enacting right, embodying certain ways of being the body keeps the score has that as one of the techniques that they use with veterans with PTSD as far as embodying certain ways of being that just change. Just give. It's it's not getting rid of something is telling the body. Here's another way that you can be. Here's another opportunity for you. You can. I'll give you another one that's easy to understand. So you once you've experienced this. You have choice. You can choose to go home at the end of the day and sit down with your loved one and relive the fact that the boss is your boss is an ass and that and that it's giving you, you know, this this, right?

Fernando Rojas:
But if you have already felt that your body can be like this and that it can feel light, then you have a choice. You have a choice to go to the other side of that, the size, the side. So you cannot unsee the fact that I made you look. And so you can choose to go to the feeling of my bosses and ask. But you have a choice to go to the feeling of what was that feeling that I had when I felt a particular way. And in our work we call that recall. Mm. You know, we, we, we when, when we are able to help our, our client feel differently from what they used to feel. We slowly, softly nudge it. For them to verbalize it and see if they say something like, mm, I feel lighter or I feel softer, or I feel or I feel no pain. And then it is my job to give it back to them as a keyword so that they, they can attach the experience to it, like, uh, like Pavlov dogs. You know of that, right?

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Pablo.

Fernando Rojas:
Dogs. They give a treat to a dog. Ring a bell, they slobber. Same thing. We're doing the same thing with ourselves. We're saying I feel lighter, and I have a keyword for that which is lighter. And if they're serious about it, and they say, what was that sensation that I had when I felt lighter? Your body is going to give you that sensation. Yeah. It's just that we become experts in my bosses and ass. Mm. Yeah. Because that is the frequency that, you know, you go to the bar and you have a drink. My boss is an ass. My boss is an ass. So I'm an expert in that. Right. But you use the same thing, but with the other sensation. Then you know, your body's going to all of a sudden aligned by itself. You know, I don't have to do something special to help someone to go from this to that. All I have is to see if I can instigate a sensation. Then. Then all of a sudden, the body's going to want to do it just like that.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Uh. That's awesome. It's not.

Fernando Rojas:
Mechanical. Right. It's not it's not an elbow in this particular place. And. No, it's I'm offering you a sensation that reminds your body of the other way that you can also be.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah, which is.

Fernando Rojas:
The the one that it prefers anyway?

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. I mean and and the way you describe it, it sounds, I don't know if easy is the right word, but accessible. Right. Um. And without without the fight or the struggle. Um, you know, and I love what you said about what happens when we, you know, knock our toe against the furniture some years ago, I. Came across a method from, uh. What's the guy's name? From Scientology. Yeah. Um. Uh. That's it, that's it.

Fernando Rojas:
That's that's where I. That's what I got it from.

Daniel Aaron:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Well, so the way I heard it.

Fernando Rojas:
John Hubbard.

Daniel Aaron:
Right. Yeah. Exactly. L Ron Hubbard, who, you know, and and complex dude with lots of problems. And we don't have to take all of that on. But at the same time, he had he tapped into some wisdom. And I remember a friend of mine saying, you know, whenever you hurt yourself, do this. And the instruction was rewind. Go back in time to what you just did. And of course, 90% of the time when I do that, it's because I was not aware in the moment when I stubbed my toe, I was thinking about something else, and the instruction was to then play it back in slow motion, like go through it in slow motion. I was like, all right, I'll try it. And I found invariably the pain either went away or just greatly reduced. Yeah. And and I found that fascinating. I never had really such an explanation until you shared what you did. That's awesome.

Fernando Rojas:
And the the word that they use is confronting. Huh? It's not such a nice word, but it is, you know, it is again, awareness. Yeah. Paying attention in an objective way to whatever is going on. What I say is that it activates an intelligence that is already there, that it is designed to work in conjunction with awareness. Yeah. The Scientologists also have a another technique that is really interesting. It's called the touch assist. And what it is is that it brings the body again to to here and now by, I believe if I remember it well, well, it's they have you close your eyes and then you don't know where they're going to touch you and you're, you're expecting them to touch you. And then they go here. And here and here, and it's just forcing your attention to go to different places, bringing you right into this moment. So these are all, uh, buzzwords like present moment awareness and mindfulness and so on and, and and even love. And they are overused. So this is why it's important to to come with an open mind, give it a chance, like a real serious chance and then see if it works. And if it works then call it whatever you like. But that's what it is.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Beautiful. Fernando, we are nearly out of time, so let's check in and see if people would like to get in touch with you. Access, um, the variety of gifts that you bring to the world. What's the best way for people to connect to you?

Fernando Rojas:
I have a. So somatic mindfulness is the two words that I'm using. Um and so my website is somatic mindfulness.co co.com. Um I also have a Facebook and an Instagram which are somatic dot mindfulness.

Daniel Aaron:
Yes. Okay.

Fernando Rojas:
Those are those are those.

Daniel Aaron:
Yes. Perfect. And so if you all are listening, rather than viewing somatic just to be sure it's somatic, mindfulness is just like you would think. And then be clear that Fernando said.co dot dot com.co. Right. So beautiful. All right. Well that's fantastic. And then I think it's if it's okay for you Fernando I will ask you the last question. The big question the impossible question. And that is because you have so much experience right. And you've studied so much. You've worked with so many people. Um, and as we know, to create a vibrant, thriving life, it's there's a journey involved in that. Still, if you had to distill all of that and say just one thing to our audience, what's the one thing you would say that would help them most to create a vibrant, thriving life?

Fernando Rojas:
Yes. Um. One thing that our bodies are designed to do is to respond to habit. And the beautiful thing about that is that and I use I often, uh, compare it or frame it around a concept called a terme called hormesis with an H, which is, which is which is sort of how vaccines work and how homeopathy works and how, um.

Daniel Aaron:
Cold therapy works.

Fernando Rojas:
Which is you give a little bit of something to the body. The body recognizes it and then prepares for it or creates the the immune response, or you get the full benefit of it, even though you may not get it in the in its full strength. And so every day. First of all, humorous, right? Humor me, humor us. Take five minutes every day. You don't have five minutes. Take one minute every day. One minute. And find something in your body. Some some sensation. Any sensation could be pain. It could be pressure. It could be something nice and just pay attention to it without any expectations. And then and see what happens. Do it every day for the rest of your life. Or at least do it every day for a month and see if there is any value. If something changes within you just because once, because you know every day you're going to brush your teeth, every day you're going to take a shower, you know, just attach it to something and then take one moment and whatever, you know, and call it presence or call it mindfulness or call it whatever makes sense to you. But don't worry so much about the analysis of the definition of it. Just take one minute and sit with your body and give this concept a chance that through your body, there's a lot that can happen in your life by only paying attention to whatever your body is telling.

Daniel Aaron:
Beautiful. Thank you, I love it. And if you don't have 5 minutes to 1 minute, right. There's always a way. So Fernando, thank you for not only for being with us. I so appreciate you taking the time out. I know you got a lot on including your three daughters, so thank you for being with us. But also thank you for your keen interest in studying the wisdom of the body and therapeutics and, you know, and that that part of you that is so caring and wanting to support and and is supporting and helping other people make their day better, make their bodies better, make their lives better, um, you know, you've cultivated so much wisdom, power and love in you that your presence here is a gift. So thank you for all of that.

Fernando Rojas:
It has been a privilege. And and if you think about it, it's almost a selfish act, right. Because whatever I do that benefits others, it's going to come right back to me.

Daniel Aaron:
Good for the goose. Good for the gander. I'm with you. Yeah. Right on. All right. And y'all who are with us as audience, viewers, listeners, thank you. Because you being interested in creating a vibrant, thriving life and even better, doing something about it, getting education and hopefully applying something that you learned today into your life. Not only does it make your life better, as Fernando just said, it makes the world better. You make the world better. You make yourself better. It's a virtuous cycle and I am so privileged and honored to be part of that journey with you. So thank you for joining us and come back soon because we got another show coming up really soon that's going to blow you away. And until then, please continue to make your life a masterpiece. Aloha y'all. Mahalo for tuning in to the Art of Vibrant Living show, y'all! I'm Daniel Aaron and may you live with great vibrancy.

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