Special Guest Expert - Kit Maxwell: Video automatically transcribed by Sonix

Special Guest Expert - Kit Maxwell: this mp4 video file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Daniel Aaron:
What does it take to create a vibrant, thriving life? First, the sad news is that Thoreau was right most people are leading quiet lives of desperation, lacking in meaning, fulfillment, and vitality. But we choose more. We choose to create extraordinary lives and the art of vibrant living. Show entertains you with inspiration, empowerment and education to create your life into a masterpiece. It's time. Let's vibe up. Aloha, y'all. Welcome to the show. This is the Art of Vibrant Living show. And I am Daniel Aaron, your host. And I say sometimes because it's true that you have the capacity to make your life a masterpiece. Of course, this show is all about empowering you, educating you to live your most vibrant, thriving life. And then sometimes I get a little cheeky with that and say, not only is it your birthright, your opportunity, it's your obligation. And I believe that because we live in such an extraordinary age where we have the art and science of thriving just so available to us in today's show is going to be phenomenal on that level. What an amazing guest we have, and a real testament to just the infinite and beautiful ways that we all can heal and grow. So my request to you. Do something with this information. Don't just take it in. Say, you know what? I'm going to try out at least one thing that I learn about today from Kitt. So, Kitt, Maxwell, my guest for today. Amazing woman. She's a certified life coach, Equus master coach, facilitator, and licensed psychotherapist. She's the founder of Zen Horse, a nonprofit organization providing profoundly healing experiences for horses and humans who have experienced trauma. Her ranch has 11 horses, all of which participate in the Equine Assisted Therapy program. Of these, nine are Mustangs born free in wild herds. As Kitt came to know these amazing animals and understand their plight, she committed to helping them. Therefore, Zen Horse rescues and rehabilitates mustangs adopted directly from the Bureau of Land Management, as well as rescued from kill pen situations in its equine assisted therapy programs. Wild horses and humans have more in common than one might think, think, and when they work together, magic happens. Yes, there's a science to it, but let's think of it as magic. I love that hit. Thank you so much for being with us.

Kit Maxwell:
Hi. Thank you for having me.

Daniel Aaron:
Oh, I'm so excited. Uh, there's, you know, I know just the tiniest bit about the world that you are so deeply immersed in. Um, and it's so much curiosity for me to learn more. Um, as I said in the intro, there's so many ways for people to heal and grow and thrive, and and I know just the tiniest bit of what you're into is is incredibly powerful in that realm. So before we get into that, though, um, would you catch our audience up a bit, though, on how did you get to be doing what you're doing?

Kit Maxwell:
Sure. Um, the longish story is, um, I was born into a horse family, although you don't have to have grown up with horses to do this work. But it was it was a really lovely introduction to life and and to get to be with horses and I. Didn't begin my career as a therapist or a worse person. I started off as a special ed teacher and I thought that I would do that forever. But as time rolled by, um, I felt a calling to. I was staying home to raise my children, and, um, I had a master's degree in education, so that allowed me to step away from teaching special ed, go teach college, um, as an adjunct professor for them. And then they said, hey, guess what? Now that education is free, how about getting another degree? It's like, okay. Um, so I got a degree in counseling, not knowing what I was going to do with that because I was an educator and I didn't want to be a therapist. Um, but I followed the inner guidance system. It definitely felt like a yes, you know, like, if the if life was the hotter, colder game of life, uh, you're moving toward those things that feel hotter, right towards those things that feel like. Yes. And getting the counseling degree felt like a yes, even though I didn't know why. So I did that, put it in my back pocket. Uh, and then it was a few years later, um, after following again, some more bread comes in crumbs into being a financial advisor. For a while. I didn't know how that was going to serve me, but the inner guidance system said it definitely will. And sidebar note it did because it taught me how to grow my own business, how to network, how to understand the finances of a business, and all the things that I was going to need to run a nonprofit. So but at the time, I didn't know. Um, and then finally I got walking into the office one morning, heard the inner voice say, this is not your life. It's time to move on to the next thing. And I'm thank goodness, because I don't really want to be a financial advisor.

Kit Maxwell:
And through the guidance of a coworker, I found life coaching, which was intriguing and that felt safer than therapy. And then as I was learning about that, I stumbled on life coaching with the assistance in partnership with horses. And that was like, oh wait, that's a thing. Oh my gosh, right. I was so excited. Uh, and at that time I was still a financial advisor with a branch office assistant. So she thought I lost my mind. I really was like, yay, around the office. Um, and so I began working with the horses. And in part of what we talk about today, um, part of what comes next in that training is how I discovered Mustangs and what was going on with them, but came home, got set up, started working as a, um, life coach with horses, you know, more in my coaching hat. Um, but a colleague of mine said, how about you stop pretending that you don't have a degree in counseling and help people with trauma? So I thought, hmm, there you go. It was 11 years later after I'd gotten that degree, and I'm like, okay, I know what you're know what you're for. Now, this is this is what we're doing. And that's how everything shifted into the focus that we have, which is basically wellness. We do fun things, we do self discovery, but we also work with trauma. And the Mustangs have been traumatized, and some of our humans have been traumatized. Um, and working together is magic. So that's kind of a high level overview of how I got there.

Daniel Aaron:
Yes. Well thank you. I'm I'm already lamenting that we don't have more time because I'd love to go deep on so many of those parts, but let's let's jump ahead a little bit because I imagine some of some of our audience like me, um, you know, just is really curious about why why is there this, this magic between horses and humans and relatedly, and, uh, I'll double up the question and you can just go wherever you want with it. Oftentimes we think of or at least I have thought of as equine assisted therapies or, you know, therapies that involve horses is all about the human right. And it's it's this, I don't know, um, species istic mindset that is very much a part of the human condition, I think, which is, uh, there are they are in service to us, though, you know, I've heard it a couple times from you that this is a two way street here. It's a relationship that benefits all parties involved. So we tell us more about what this magic is and what the relationship is and why it's so special.

Kit Maxwell:
Oh, that's a great question. Um, well, I'll first say that for people who do have horse experience the way that I had grown up traditional horse experiences, what you're exactly what you described. You're like, oh, it's this animal. We're going to do the animal things, but it's going to do what I want to do. And that's kind of everything is successful. As long as the horse is doing what I tell it to do, when I tell it to do it, which is, I guess, fine in those kinds of partnerships. But so when I discovered this work and went out to try it, I it was mind blown. As far as how you could relate to horses on this different level. Literally. Mind blowing. So what I've learned is. There are several things that play into it, but a horses are sentient beings, and in my personal philosophy, after getting to know all the things about them that I now know, I'm also very careful not to say, like I think I said, we don't own 11 horses. I say we have 11 horses with us because I consider myself a steward of their care that you cannot own another sentient being. So we're very careful about that. We really do consider ourselves in partnership with them. They know a ton. So why it works so magically? Be horses are prey animals, so they are wired. And again we talked about this a little bit. A lot of people don't think of a 1,200 pound animal as being a prey animal. And that's funny because a lot of people who come out think, oh my gosh, it's going to, you know, it's going to eat me. I'm like, no, it's not, it's a herbivore. But, uh, yeah, they are prey animals and they will run away if they can, but they are wired because they're prey animals. To be constantly reading your heart rate, respiration and your energy. And our as a human, our electromagnetic electromagnetic bubble is about ten feet in diameter and a horse is about 50ft. So they can literally feel your heart beating from about 50ft away. So they're just wired to be knowing what you're doing.

Kit Maxwell:
And they are herd animals. So unless they've been too traumatized to care about bonding with others and that's rare, most of them want to connect even with humans. So when we put the horses and the humans together. They are, on so many levels, a great therapeutic facilitator. One level is there giving you instant biofeedback in the moment of what is happening with you energetically, so I can tell what's happening with you based on what the horse is doing, is they're going to reflect where like so if you're out of your body. So a person who's kind of dissociating, maybe having a trauma response and you know, they're just kind of like, whoop, like I'm in my head or I'm out of my body entirely. The horses are like, mm. They don't judge because they don't have story. Right. So that's beautiful. It's a nice safe container. But they're noticing that and they're going huh. Some little wonky over there energetically. I think I'm just going to head over here and they'll just walk straight away from you. So then the people are like, well, what's going on? You know, and my job is to interpret like, oh, okay, well, are you in your body or are you not in your body? Like, oh yeah, I'm not. Okay, let's try something. Close your eyes and breathe into your belly. Can you feel your feet? All right. Picture your heart space. Picture some yellow light or some white light. Now open your eyes. Oh, yeah. The horse is, like, right there. So right when they've climbed into their body and become embodied again, the horses are like, oh, there you are. I'll come right back. And so say then they're loving on them. Oh, this is great. And all of a sudden the horse beeline away and I'll say, what happened there? Oh, I was really in my heart space and thinking how wonderful this relationship was with the horse. It's so great. But then I started to think, you know, I wish I had that relationship with my brother. I wish he wasn't such a jerk to me. So the minute they pop up into head into story, the horse is like, bye, mom.

Kit Maxwell:
So at one level, they're getting that instant feedback that helps them see, oh, something has shifted in me. And am I now in a space that is helping me? Is this a pattern that's serving me or a pattern that's not so? A quick example, life changing example for one of our women who has actually came to our Wild Woman retreat. She was stomping really around the round pen, and the horse is following her, and she's just like, I'm so angry. I'm so angry, I'm so angry. And the horse is like, so sidebar note horses don't matter. They don't care what emotion you're having. They care whether you're congruent. So whether you're sad, angry, scared, that's fine. As long as you are like, yeah, I'm sad, angry or scared. If you're in that space of like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. That's incongruent and it's wonky for them and they just will walk away from you. So the fact that he was still with her, even though she was so angry, let her know, okay, I'm in my heart. I'm feeling my feels. I'm congruent and I'm in my body because he's with me. So she's going wrong. She's letting it out. She's like, ah, I'm so mad, I'm so mad, I'm so mad. And all of a sudden he beelines off and I said, oh, stop there. What did you notice? She's like, he walked away and I said, yeah. Do you notice what shifted right when he walked away? And she said, no, because I was kind of on a rant. I said, okay, it was you went from, I'm so angry. I'm so hurt. I'm so angry to. And it's my sister's fault. Mm. And the horse was like, see you. And she talks about it to this day. She's like, that was a game changer, to be able to recognize the difference between my heart expression and when I'm in blame, and how that story is not serving me. So so there's the instant biofeedback in the moment. There is also then the value of projection, because my clients are going to project onto the horse what they believe that they see happening in their people world.

Kit Maxwell:
So like if the horse isn't coming to them, I'll say, what's coming up for you? What do you notice? Oh, that horse is not interested in me. Just doesn't like me. Um, it's more interested in that grass than me. Um, he thinks I'm boring. Like. Oh, okay. Um, where in your people world are you experiencing something like that right now? Oh. At work? Yeah, it's, you know, it's my boss. He just does it, you know? So we it's used as a great metaphorical tool as well, because the way we do anything is the way we do everything. So we're going to show up with our patterns. We're going to show up with our interpretation of what's happening, and then we're going to show up with our physiology and get that feedback from them. And the last thing that I'll say on a sciency level, since I prefer to live in the magic space, I'll give you a little science. Everybody who's hung out with horses that aren't terrified of them if that happened. But we'll tell you that. Yeah. You know, I just feel better. I just feel better when I'm out there with my horse. So the Heartmath Institute decided to do a study, and they set up a workshop where they put strapped heart monitors onto the human participants and then onto the horses to see what would happen. So when the humans got within that 50, um, what did I say earlier, I can't remember. That's it. 50ft, like centimeters. Millimeters, that 50 foot diameter bubble when a person got inside of it. They notice that the heart rate variability of the humans increased. So the heart rate variability is the ability for the heart rate to speed up and slow down, right. And parasympathetic and sympathetic. Right. And we want that. That's a healthy rhythm for us to be able to go up and go down. But when we've experienced trauma, a lot of times it gets stiff or stuck in a certain rhythm. So good heart rate variability that's good for us. So humans just getting in that bubble with the horses experienced greater heart rate variability just from being in there like Hmm'hmm.

Kit Maxwell:
So they had them move closer then and actually interact with the horses by grooming or doing an activity. And they found that when they did that, the heart rate synced. Um, so. Yeah. And the horse heart rate was 30s ahead of the human heart rate. All except for one participant. She was 30s ahead of the horse and she was a Reiki practitioner. So she was sending good, energetic healthiness to the horse, and the horse was sending it to the humans. So there really is something biological, scientific happening in sharing that heart rhythm with the horses.

Daniel Aaron:
Wow. That's, um, that's all amazing. And and when you were describing the, the, uh, the bio feedback in the first part of what you're describing there, I immediately thought of Heartmath. So I love that, that, that came around there. Right. And gosh, there's so much in that. But let me let me ask you this because you mentioned it briefly. You said, you know, unless someone's afraid of the horse, um, is that and you described how they are actually prey animals and they are herbivores, right. And they don't eat people yet. Um, yet they're big compared to humans. Um, and they got big teeth. And so do people get afraid. And what's the relationship between human, human fear and the horses and you know. And how does that evolve when when you work with people?

Kit Maxwell:
Good question. Um, on a practical note, we always do a safety demo, and we tell them not to let their fingers go inside the mouth, because the only difference between fingers and carrots is the taste. So eventually they'll figure out it's not a carrot and spit it back out, but it hurts a little bit. Um, you know, it's it fascinates me because as I said, we since we do like equine assisted wellness, we kind of have a spectrum. So we have people that are coming to me for private sessions to work on trauma things. But on the other end, we're just doing fun stuff. So we have meditation circles a lot, and so people will come once a month and sit in the meditation circle. So that's where we get more of the people that have experienced fear because they're like, well, at least I can sit down and, you know, I can contain my fear. I don't have to interact with this horse. Occasionally people will come for a private session, like, I'm here to overcome my fear of horses. I'm like, I'm not sure that's exact. Usual point of why you would come, but okay, I'm down for it. I can we can work with that. But the horses don't care that you're afraid old horse guys will give you the advice of like, don't let them know you're afraid. But that's baloney, because they already know. So if you're doing that, I'm not afraid. Incongruent thing, then they're never going to come near you. So, I mean, I guess that's good if you're afraid. But they don't care. They're not affected. They don't get upset by the fact that you're afraid as long as you're just straightforward, congruent with it. And so we just talk it through in a meditation circle. I'll just make sure I'm available and ask them, how are you feeling? What are you noticing. So we do a lot of somatic, um, awareness. It's an opportunity to, to help them through, um, a nervous system in response to something they're scared about. But often the horse respects because they can sense, like, oh, you know, I probably ought to not run right up to this person because they're a little worried.

Kit Maxwell:
So they'll come up more slowly, um, and very gently interact with the person if they're afraid. Um, and then I step in if again, because sometimes the fears are just irrational and it doesn't matter what's happening. But I tell everybody to your point, this is a 1,200 pound animal. So there's a little bit of practicality in being nervous or scared, especially if you've had a bad experience. But to someone who doesn't know horses, you're really kind of at a blank slate. It's like, is this thing going to whip around out of nowhere? I don't understand its behavior, you know? So it makes sense. So I try to validate, like if you're feeling scared, that's not ridiculous. Um, but the horses really respect that and will be very gentle with people that are afraid of them. Mm.

Daniel Aaron:
Wow. Okay. So. What? I'm curious about this. I'm going to bring a personal piece to the table here for a moment. When I was a little boy, I remember still remember one of my earliest memories. My father took me out somewhere and we're going to do a, you know, weekend with dad go horse riding thing. And and I got up on a on, on a horse. And, you know, I must have been, I don't know, 5 or 6 years old, something like that. And, uh, and I was, you know, a bit, uh, nervous at the least. Probably afraid, excited, nervous, afraid, you know, all the same. Energetic in some way. And and when I, when I got up there, then the horse, like, took off, started running and I freaked out, you know, I was like, ah, it's going too fast, right? And then after that, I didn't want to do any more horse riding like I for the rest of my childhood. I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm no thanks. And then years later, when I had something of a spiritual awakening that led me to my first type of alternative therapy, which was shamanism. And very first experience I had with shamanism was what they call a soul retrieval. And the experience of it came back that a piece of my soul had been lost in that experience. And we had this, you know, the whole story. But we had this recovery process and, uh, and it changed my relationship with, with horses that forever thereafter. So do you get people that had earlier traumatic experiences? I mean, and of course, it's always their interpretation. Right. But that had experiences like that. And then what happens for people when that shifts?

Kit Maxwell:
Well great question. Yeah. So mostly in the meditation circles we'll get people that talk about because I always ask, you know, you don't need any horse experience, but I'm always curious. And so there will always be a 1 or 2 that got dumped by Aunt Sally's, whoever you know, and have never forgotten it or or gotten over it. So we usually talk that through to begin with about like, okay, what's the difference between what that experience was and the experience that you're going to have here with us at Zen Horse? Because when we factor in, again, the horse is a sentient being. So it's not like riding a motorcycle, you know, you're writing something that has some ideas about what it will and will not do, and it's reading your energy. But what's different about when the horse is underneath you and you're nervous, versus when it can choose what to do when you're nervous, it's at your mercy when you're on top of it, right? So your nervousness and or write out fear is traveling down through your core, through your legs, directly into them, right? Even without the electromagnetic bubble, I mean, you're like touching them. So it's going in, I don't know what I'm doing and I'm don't feel good about it. And they're like, well, you're in charge. This is not good. And then they do whatever they do, run away, throw you off like refuse to go anywhere, right? Because they're like this. I don't feel safe with you not feeling safe. And you get to be the one who makes the decisions. So the difference then is when you come to Zen horse, that horse is not underneath you. It is free to experience you as you are over there knowing I can walk away. If your energy gets a little wonk or I can come over and comfort you. So we call that again being at liberty and the horses behave so differently. There was a horse that I was working with in the early days. His name was buzz, but I affectionately refer to him as butt, and he was this giant, gorgeous palomino. But we called him the Curmudgeon because he was a horse that we rode, but under saddle.

Kit Maxwell:
He was just like, would even make that face. Horses have a lot of facial expression. He was like, hey, I don't know, whatever. You know, he was just. And even grooming him and putting his tack on, he tried to bite you and, like, rip his saddle off. And, uh, we shared ownership with him with another lady. And when she was picking his back hooves, he pooped on her. Not a coincidence. That was not an accident. He knew what he was doing. So when I had to start practicing doing the work, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to use buzz. What in the world is going to happen? I know he's not going to hurt anyone, but who knows? But I'm practicing. It'll be fine. Buzz, when you put him in the in the round pen and he was at liberty, was a different man, I was stunned. He was kind. He was caring. When the person would get upset that I was talking to, he would wrap himself around them and, like, shield them from me, making a little buffer and then give them a big horse hug and they would just sob into his neck and then he would okay, you know, he was like there for them. So come in and experiencing the horses in this different way. Is. I know life changing is kind of an overused terme these days, but it really, really shifts the relationship of like, how come things didn't go so well that first time when I a had no relationship with this horse, and B got on when I had a whole lot of feels, uh, versus now when this horse has a choice about how to interact with me, this super different.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah, well, that makes a lot, a lot, a lot of sense. Um, and I just I'm so appreciative of the way you speak about the horses with such respect. And, uh, you know, I use the word earlier. Speciesism. Uh, and that's something from the earliest age. For me personally, I just thought there's there's something there's something messed up about our relationship with animals because of the way we use them without consent. Right? We never. You know, typically we don't say, hey, you know, do you want to do this? Would you know, how can we work this out? It's like, oh, no, you're going to work for me whether you want to or not. So. You've, you've you've stated in various ways, again, about how this is a, um, mutually beneficial relationship. And we've got some insight now into ways that it helps the humans. In what ways does it help the the horses.

Kit Maxwell:
Mhm. Good question. So the Mustangs for sure are coming with their own trauma and grief and loss. They are when they're gathered they are separated from their families. And as herd animals they are very close. They stay in family units their whole lives. Mothers and daughters stay in the same herd, things like that. So, you know, stallions and their, their herd mates. So when they are gathered and separated, it is devastating for them. So a it's terrifying because the whole experience. But then B grief is a is a big deal for them because they're taken from their families and shipped off to a place they don't know where they are or what. These because most of them have never seen humans before. Um, and then if they've been through the kill pens or been through ownership by another person, that's laid down a whole nother set of betrayal. So they come pretty cautious and closed in their hearts. So we give them a little decompression time. We don't just start letting them working with clients, letting them work with clients until they're ready. They've had a little bit of time to decompress and know that they're safe. But it's interesting that just being where we are, where the people are kind and that they could read the energy like people, come a lot and say, I would never know that these were all rescue horses because they're so calm and most of the time in a rescue situation, the horses are still very amped up and upset about things. Um, but so when they're ready, we start letting the clients come and at least greet them, maybe give a little pet, and just having them on the greeting level of like, oh, look, this can be better. This this doesn't have to be a bad experience. But once we're sure that they can handle it emotionally, we start to let clients choose them. So there's a horse named Emma, and Emma is a draft horse size. So mustangs come in from, like almost pony sized all the way up to draft horse size. People think of them as being small horses, but they're really very. And Emma is huge. She came out of a herd in Oregon and.

Kit Maxwell:
Long story short, someone adopted her and then dumped her back on government land about four years ago. And the government said, well, that's not our problem. Let's have the Humane Society take her, because, you know, and so something bad happened there. They had three trainers that tried to train her and said that she was untrainable and needed to be euthanized. So by the time they were done training her or trying to train her, she was distraught. She was worse off than when she started. So they were going to euthanize her. But the rescue found out about her and they barely got her into the trailer to get her to the foster. But once she was at the foster, who was a lovely person who trains Mustangs, she said. Within a couple of hours, a 14 year old girl had a halter on her. Right. So just different approach, like, oh, okay, so Emma's been with us for a couple of years and has been so. Traumatized that we. I haven't let a ton of people choose her yet, but we had another session this past weekend. So about how how humans help horses. This young lady is 16 years old and she just had the right energy. So often I'll say, you can pick anybody you like, but Emma or whatever. I'm like, no, today's the day. So I let her go out there, this young lady, and sure enough, she chose Emma. And Emma is normally very like, okay, what are we doing? What are we doing? You know, where is this going? But with that young lady, I've got pictures. I can text you later. But there was just the sense, like this young woman was. So she had her own things that she came to work on that were very sad. Right? But she had such a peaceful, kind, loving energy that she was sending to Emma. And Emma was like, oh yeah, you can pick me. That would be great. And so she did, and we put him into the round pen. And that's usually where Emma will be like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. But no, the young lady just stroked her her neck and her face and Emma's eyes closed.

Kit Maxwell:
It was she was almost getting sleepy and she did her little leg cock. She's never been that relaxed that I've ever seen her except with the herd. So each interaction with the human heart channeling. Remember that Reiki practitioner that I mentioned who was sending that good energy to the heart, to the heart of the horse? That's what they receive. We can send it. We co-regulate the nervous systems, talk to each other. The one thing we all have in common, humans or animals, is that we all have a nervous system and they co-regulate and they speak to each other. And so that young woman was sending just love and acceptance. And we're okay here and there's nothing but good coming at you. And Emma was responding to that so beautifully. And they had such a lovely interaction. And Emma is better even since being with her. So each time she coagulates and receives love and builds trust from a human. And then of course the human is like, oh my gosh, you know, I was able to do that with this 1,700 pound animal because she's really big, uh, like, look how powerful I am. And look how how this, this horse received what I had to give. And so doesn't that build, you know, and it's just that reciprocal healing that goes to the horses as well.

Daniel Aaron:
Wow, what a beautiful story. That's amazing. And so. And then. So what's the significance of Mustangs particularly? I'm I'm pretty horse ignorant myself. Um, and so I, you know, my, uh, out of my ignorance, I think Mustang. Well, that must be a, you know, strong horse, a rebellious horse, right? They they named a, uh, you know, a a big, fancy, uh, sports car after it. Right. So what's what's the deal with Mustangs?

Kit Maxwell:
Oh, goodness. Well, I didn't know anything about them either. So in the second year of the master facilitator level training that I was in, one of the things that we had to do was go to Oregon and work for four days with two completely unhandled Mustangs. Wild Mustangs. We had to wear helmets, you know, like, okay, um, and I didn't know anything about mustangs, like, all that horse experience. I didn't know anything about wild horses. So we had to watch videos, and we had to see. We had to learn, um, what the plight is, and it's bad. Um, what's happening to them is really bad. So I can only watch so much of that. Too tender hearted, but enough to get the gist. So then we went and. My heart was opened to the Mustangs during that four day period. There were the two, like I said, two three year olds that had come out of a herd in Oregon, and after four days, the little black one, we could touch her everywhere. We could halter her, we could pick up her feet. We could lead her. I mean, it was really amazing how receptive in four days from completely wild and unhandled to. Yeah, that's fine. I can work with you people. That's great. You know, they're smart, they're adaptable, they're sturdy, they're strong, they're everything you said and most of the time very willing to work with us again. If it's only when they've been super traumatized or they're very angry or still in their grief about being hauled all the way across the country, that they have a hard time, but most of them will bond. So at the end of the four days, the other one, she was still so traumatized that we could only touch her if we carefully walked up through a panel and just touched her on the shoulder. That was it after the four days. And so the woman said at the facility said, well, I'm going to adopt the little black one. I'm going to send this one back to the Bureau of Land Management. We'll just send it back to holding. And I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this animal is terrified.

Kit Maxwell:
And I know nothing about wild horses. I don't even know if I could keep it contained because they can jump really high. You have to have at least six foot fences wherever you are. They'll just jump out and run away. So which is not the standard for a regular horse. But I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I can't let this happen though. I can't let and I'm getting the calling I'm getting the feeling. And I'm like no, no because I'm not prepared for this. I don't know how to do. I'll call my mom. She'll talk me out of it. Boop boop boop boop boop boop. Mom! Wild horse. Bring it home. Good idea. She's like, hmm. Let me consult the I Ching. And so, for any of our listeners who don't know what the I-Ching is, it's an ancient Chinese oracle. Didn't expect that. Thanks, mom. So she leaves the phone, comes back. It's your destiny. Like, okay, so soon? I came home and she's still with us. If you see pictures of me on the website. She's the white, she's gray, but she looks white. She's the white horse that's in the in the pictures with me. And so sooner came. She was terrified, I was terrified. The personal growth for me to learn that I could bond with an animal and she could trust me and I could trust her, and now I can halter her, I can lead her around, I can pick up her feet, all of those things because she trusts me, not because I was trained to break her or or even train to gentle her because I wasn't. We built a we forged a bond out of mutual trust and respect. And the Mustangs have that even more than domestic horses do. They, you know, domestic horses have that. Heritage, right? It's in their in their blood several generations ago of what it means to be a horse. So they're pretty good. Very good. A lot of the things the horses do. But Mustangs were living it like a couple of years ago.

Kit Maxwell:
They were living life as a horse, as a prey animal that really was living the high stakes life. So they're extremely connected, intuitive and. Um, they're just amazing. Amazing animals. Um, I don't know, I could gush for hours about them, but they have my heart and they are in trouble, so we also need to help them.

Daniel Aaron:
Gotcha. Okay, well, I've got a couple of thoughts and questions, but let me start with that last thing you said. They are in trouble. What does that mean?

Kit Maxwell:
People ask a lot about what's going on. And it's it's one of those very money political kind of things. So to try to be high level fair about it. The. The high level view is the wild horses in the western states are on government land. However, the wealthy cattle owners want the grass on the government land for the cattle. And so since they have lobbyists and they have money, they feel that the wild horses are vermin and need to be removed. So the Bureau of Land Management has just gathered them. Is the name we use. Um, gather them, usually with helicopters. And horses are killed during the gather. Bad things happen, all of that. Um, and they have over 60,000 horses in holding right now just standing there that they've gathered up that they don't know what to do with. So in an effort to try to get them out and get them to to homes and things. But these are wild animals and most people aren't trained to handle a wild animal. Um, they have an adoption incentive program. So at first it was you can adopt a wild Mustang for $125, by the way. And if that horse is over ten years old, or if they've tried to be in an adoption three times and just didn't get picked for whatever reason, they're now $25. So that enter the kill pen buyers who are snapping them up and then selling them to kill pen killers, um, for hundreds and hundreds of dollars each. So the Bureau of Land Management thought, okay, let's let's try to help these people who don't. They would have to pay a lot of money for training. So let's, let's. So their new program is if you adopt a horse for $125, and after a year, if you still have that horse alive and well and can show that it's still there, they'll give you $1,000. Mm. That sounds great. Except now this kill buyers are super motivated. So while. Problem number one is all of these wonderful horses standing and holding 60,000 of them, and then all of the ones who have now been dumped in a kill pen. So that's why for us, we're trying to take them directly from half of our horses are from the Bureau of Land Management unhandled. So we're trying to help there. And then we're also fostering for evanescent Mustang rescue and sanctuary in Texas. They've got satellite fosters all over. So we've been fostering and rehabilitating for them. Although we stink as fosters and we just keep them and love them forever.

Daniel Aaron:
Gotcha. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, I want to. I'll come right back to that in a second. Uh, a side note, uh, years ago, I led yoga teacher trainings. And as part of my process of helping people evolve and become yoga teachers, I also provided some education around one of the aspects of yoga philosophy, which is called ahimsa, which you could we could talk lots about it, but in short, it means do as little harm as possible. And a lot of people associate ahimsa with vegetarianism. Um, and and I would what I felt it was my responsibility in training yoga teachers for them to really understand what happens in the world of the way humans treat animals. And that can be, of course, a very slippery and gruesome slope, because the the horrors are many. Um, and very graphic. So one of the things I would do is I would show a film whose title I'm not remembering right now, but it was a film that showed about, um, about abuses from humans toward animals, but also from a perspective of some people that were really doing some good to help, um, some folks that had an animal sanctuary. And there were some beautiful stories in there of people who had sort of waken up to the fact that, hey, these are other beings there. Yeah, there are different species. They're no less worthy of life, respect and love than any human would be as well. Um, so I'm with you. I don't want to look at some of the, some of the footage, which is just, you know, so stomach churning and horrific. Yet at the same time, I don't want to turn a blind eye. Um. And I feel like that's all all of us have that responsibility to be aware and make informed choices. So all that said, you've used the phrase a few times, Kill Penn, and I'm not familiar with that. So would you tell us what that is?

Kit Maxwell:
Yeah, there's still processing horses in Mexico for like, dog food and stuff. And so the kill pen, they the kill buyers, like they'll go to auction and then at auction if the rescues can't get them, of course, it's become a racket now, right? Because the kill buyers. No auction. You mean, uh, rescue people are going to show up. So let me just bid up the price. So in order to write, it's such a such a mess. But. So if the kill buyer actually gets the horse, then they're going to go on a truck and they're going to go to Mexico and they're going to make them into dog food.

Daniel Aaron:
And of course, they're doing those kill buyers are doing that because they're going to make money from it. Is that right?

Kit Maxwell:
Uh, 100%.

Daniel Aaron:
Yeah. Okay.

Kit Maxwell:
Yeah.

Daniel Aaron:
Wow.

Kit Maxwell:
To your to your point earlier, you know, one thing that happened, the whole Mustang thing happened because getting to know sooner and learning what was going on, you know, once you know something, you can't unknow it. And if you know that, you can help. You have to help, you know. And it's like that. The starfish. Right. The little boy in the starfish on the. It's like I can't save them all, but I can help as many starfish as I can. Right. So that that became our our perspective is help as many as we can. And and Suna is an amazing horse and we have a special bond. But to your point, I am a firm believer in she is a sentient being and she has a choice. So all of our horses have choice. They get to choose where they want to be if they want to work that day, if they want to do anything and work, if they want to hang out with the humans that day. So I asked Suna if she would let me teach her how to ride her. You know, like, would she be saddled? Would she be? So I started the training and she just. If a horse could make a I'm going to throw up face. She was like, oh my. She's like, no, she was. It was so this is so beneath me. Maxwell, we don't have this kind of relationship. So it was like, I will do it if you keep asking me, but I'm going to let you know I don't want to. And so I just let her go. I'm like, all right. And I'll ask her periodically. How about today? You know, like and by periodically I mean like maybe once every six months, just in case it's shifted, right? Like, hey, maybe it's today's the day I'm gonna let it ride me. But we do. We let them choose. And if they're not into it, we respect that.

Daniel Aaron:
Mm. Beautiful I love that. Well. And so I remember the name of the film I was thinking of earlier. It's called Peaceable Kingdom, which for anyone that's interested in this topic, I, I still think it's a beautiful and touching. And while it does show some of the some of the horrors it does it in, in, in a, in a tasteful way, if I can say that and in a way that also contains hope in the midst of it. Um, and, and another side note, based on what you were just talking about with Suna, um, there's a really interesting series of novels that talks about, uh, human relationship with dragons. Um, and when the dragon is hatched, there's this early phase in the in the process to see, will this dragonet allow a human to tether it? Right. And they never know when the dragon is born, if they will or not, but it becomes a very symbiotic and equal relationship. Um, in this novel series, it's beautifully done. Um, so all that said, um, what you know, for, for people like, um, me who don't have any horses around them, um, and for people that are not near you and able to visit, um, what how can what do you recommend for people to broaden their awareness or experience with horses? Is it something that's widely available everywhere or what should people know?

Kit Maxwell:
Well, one of my colleagues from my cohort lives in Hawaii, so you could probably go see her. This type of work really is everywhere. Um, but like anything, we're all even like yoga, right? There are so many types of yoga there. Even if it's the same kind of yoga, there's the different way that instructors deliver it. So you might have to do a little bit of, uh, research into, okay, what is offered, um, at a, at our place, for example, we're a nonprofit, so we have volunteers. So if you want to volunteer, you can come out and hang out with the horses anytime, you know, for free. So does this place have volunteers? Um, is it the writing kind of therapy or is it more of that groundwork experience? So looking for a little bit of knowing what experience you're looking for, but they're there in more places than you think. So I would just I would say do a Google search, but I mean, you will find them wherever you are. Mm. Great. And in person is the best. You know, it's one of the things I've struggled with to try to find a virtual platform, to try to share that out farther. It's doable, but it's a little clunky. So it's easier if you can get in the vicinity the actual space with them. Mhm.

Daniel Aaron:
Well, and as you said that I love this, you said uh in-person is best. And that's the phrasing we use. And our language has evolved a lot over the last years to distinguish between something that's live like you and I are live right now but we're not in person. Right. So live and virtual. Um, but and we use this terme in person. Um, though that's a I guess I realize now for the first time, that's a bit of a speciesist phrase too, right? So true. Yeah. Maybe we, um, need to evolve our language on that. Um, you know, I think part of what what I so appreciate, uh, many things about who you are and what you've done and what you offer in the world is my understanding of of spirit of life is that. Yeah, we've got many different forms. You and I, um, appear to be different people, different beings. Yet every spiritual tradition points to a fundamental truth that there's only one. Right? It's it's an illusion that there is separation, um, that there is a distinction between me and anyone else. And that's no less true with animals, right? Just because they don't speak the same language we do, or have more or less legs than we do or whatever it is, um, they're, they're equally worthy and and it's, you know, so many great luminaries have pointed. It out that you can measure the progress of humanity by the way they treat all beings, all animals. Right. That's something that Einstein spoke a lot about. Um, you know, widening our circle of compassion and broadening our understanding of all the beings around us. So you could, I know, have, uh, a wide variety of services that you offer right there in different types of ways of working with, with the people and the horses. Where, um, where where is it going for you? What are you looking forward to? What are you creating in the next, um, the next part of your work in life?

Kit Maxwell:
Ah. Good question. Um, we're entering our summer here. So our summer programs, we do, we all year round, we do our monthly meditation circle. So we're enjoying that. But we're scheduling a lot of private meditation circles now, so people doing retreats will come and have we have a walking labyrinth on our property as well. Love, love me a labyrinth. Um, and, uh, we're doing our summer workshops and things like that, but we also in the private sessions and our Wild Woman retreat, which is in August every year. All those things are on our website, but we're also partnering with a women's sober living home. So we provide equine assisted therapy for the women who are in recovery. And then we are looking this year to partner with another nonprofit organization that supports women through their breast cancer diagnosis. So we want to be able there's a lot of research about how doing therapeutic stuff with horses aids in the recovery from different types of cancers. But, you know, in this case, it would be breast cancer. So there's a lot of. I a lot of physical healing that happens with the horses when we do the meditation circles. I don't tell people this ahead of time. So like spoiler alert, everyone who hasn't been to our meditation circle yet. I don't tell them this till the end because I don't want to influence their experience. But I've done hundreds of these by now and I just know it's what happens. The horses are drawn to things that are happening in the human body, so they will detect disease, illness, um, injuries and anything that where the person is in pain or there's something happening in their body that's not right. And so I take notes during the meditation circles about what the horses are doing, because they'll go to a person and they'll move energy for that person. They'll do a bunch of releases, they're yawning, they're licking, they're doing, you know, so they can do it's not a symbiotic release. I can never remember the word for it, but they can go up to a human and move that energy and then release it out for them. Um, but they're drawn to those places, so I'll, I'll note if they keep coming to a certain part of the body.

Kit Maxwell:
So like this one, man, I said, hey, you know, I noticed that, um, both of the horses kept coming to your hip. I don't know if you have something going on with your hip. Oh, yeah. I was just in a motorcycle accident. So then I say, oh, you know. Well, how's it feeling? Oh, now that you mention it, it was really hurting when I got here, but now it doesn't hurt at all. I'm like, I know, huh? Weird. This other lady that kept coming to her chest over and over and over and I thought, uh oh, you know, so I said, I, I don't know if you have something going on with the chest or and she goes, oh, yeah, I'm recovering from pneumonia. So the black horse came back around, put her muzzle here. All of a sudden she started coughing like this wet hit, hit, hit. And I thought, oh my gosh, it's going to hack a loogie right on this lady. And like kill the whole vibe. But that didn't happen. So she just kind of like hit and then walked off, you know, almost as if she was clearing it for her. There's they've detected cancers and people that they didn't know had cancer. So again the tying back in that health vibe, they can, um, provide healing to the physical body through their own connection with energy. They're very good at moving energy. So so we're partnering with some more nonprofits to help them, um, by providing therapy, but also just healing time with the horses for healing physically.

Daniel Aaron:
Um, well, you know, as I as I hear you speaking about that, what comes to me is that, you know, just going back to what I was saying a minute ago about the sense of oneness and the illusion of separation, that that is also the root of compassion, right? It's for all of us when we realize that anyone else's pain is our pain. And so any service, love, healing that we can offer is is also selfish in a sense, right? It's it's healing ourselves. And it the way you describe that with the horses and the and the humans physical maladies and challenges. Sounds like that. The horses have an innate awareness of that sense of oneness.

Kit Maxwell:
Yeah. And that's another thing that it's interesting to me, the difference between we've only got one regular domestic horse now and a mini who isn't ours, but we keep her for a friend and she's amazeballs and everybody loves her. But so with my one now domestic horse, she's wonderful. Amazing at the meditation circles and moving energy and doing the things. But what's different from her, different between her and the Mustangs, is that she's not as good at releasing that back out. So like what she takes in from the people she hangs on to. So we have to have sometimes some energy practitioners come and help her release that extra off where the Mustangs seem to be able to do that just naturally on their own, like just move it through and move it out like, yeah, this is what we do, you know? So I just thought that was kind of an interesting difference in them. She's just as good at it. She's just hangs on to it and can't let it go on her own.

Daniel Aaron:
But that says a lot about domestication, I think. Um, uh, regardless of species. And we could talk about that for a long time, but I'll move us along. So, Kit, for anybody in the audience live or by rebroadcast, who wants to learn more or connect with you, what's the what's the best way?

Kit Maxwell:
Um, just to reach out to us through Zen Horse. Org. Um, there's contact information there. Um, there's ways to RSVP and sign up for things. Um, so. Yeah, kind of just contact us and let us know what kind of experience you're looking for, whether it ranges from volunteering to actually participating in one of our fund events. We've got an open house coming up in May where people can come and meet the horses, and we're going to dedicate the labyrinth and they'll get to see the property. So that's another good way to just come and see us.

Daniel Aaron:
Okay. Awesome. And so for anyone who's listening, that's Zen Zen horse. You know how to spell that.org. And, um, I don't know if we said since we've been live on the show today. Um, Missouri. Right. You're in Missouri, Saint Louis. Is that right?

Kit Maxwell:
Missouri.

Daniel Aaron:
Missouri?

Kit Maxwell:
Yes. Yeah. We're about, uh, we're technically in Saint Charles County, so just a little bit outside. We're about 20, 25 minutes from the Chesterfield Valley in the Saint Louis area.

Daniel Aaron:
Okay, beautiful. Awesome. All right, well, time's flying along, kit. I think that brings us, uh, sadly, uh, to the big final question. The impossible, ridiculous question. Can I ask you that question?

Kit Maxwell:
Sure. What is.

Daniel Aaron:
It? Well, so here's the thing. You've got so much knowledge and experience. So much wisdom, um, and intuitive connection. Uh, that's why I say it's impossible. Because what I'm asking is for you to boil everything down. And if you had one thing to share with our audience that would help them to live their most vibrant, thriving life, what's the one thing you would share?

Kit Maxwell:
Uh, okay. For me, it would be to follow the breadcrumbs that you don't have to know the whole scope of what your life is going to look like if you just connect to your internal wisdom and do life like the hot or cold or game. So when something's happening, does it feel warmer or does it feel colder? Does it feel like a yes or like a no? And you don't have to know why. So follow the yeses and steer away from the no's. Follow the breadcrumbs and it'll all become clear eventually how it all goes together.

Daniel Aaron:
I love that one, and I love that you, um, have embodied that and live that in your life. And it's so amazing the journey that you've had, the courage and wisdom that you've had to follow those breadcrumbs and what it's led you to, and the benefit that that's bringing for for so many beings in the world of various species. So thank you for for that courage and wisdom, and thank you for all the work that you're doing to, you know, cultivate such wisdom to be able to bring to us today. And thanks for investing this time with us today. It's really an honor.

Kit Maxwell:
Uh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate your time and getting to share it with you. Thank you. Beautiful.

Daniel Aaron:
Awesome. All right. And y'all in our audience, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being interested in the art of vibrant living, for upping the quality of your life because, hey, cool that it makes your life better. Even more powerful though, is it makes the world a better place. It really makes a difference. So thank you for being here. And again, take something from today's show and try it out. Put it into place. Maybe you do a little research. Maybe you get a connection with a horse or another animal today. Who knows? And y'all please join us again soon. We got another show coming up soon. Please. Also, in the meantime, go out and make your life a masterpiece. Thanks, y'all. Aloha. Mahalo for tuning in to the Art of Vibrant Living show y'all! I'm Daniel Aaron and may you live with great vibrancy.

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